Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: proof of stake the rich get richer  (Read 431 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sisseck

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
proof of stake the rich get richer
« on: December 08, 2013, 06:17:41 AM »
Maybe someone can help explain this to me. NXT is proof of stake so the more coins you have the greater percentage of transaction fees you will get. If you are a large holder of NXT you are going to be making more money then a small holder of NXT, but it would cost both of you the same to send money. If this is how it works the rich will continue to get richer and the poor with get poorer. Maybe I am missing something.

Offline NxtChoice

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 07:05:26 AM »
Quote Sunny King of Peercoin (www.peercoin.net) replied the same question:

The richer get richer, and at the same time the poor the richer at the same rate.

NXT: 17959837214177417816

Offline pandaisftw

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 08:00:31 AM »
Example:

You use 100 BTC to buy 1% of all coins, you will mine 1% of all blocks.

You use 1 BTC to 0.01% of all coins, you will mine 0.01% of all blocks.

Both are equally proportional to how much money you put in. Same thing as investing $2000 to buy an ASIC vs. $200 for a GPU, the ASIC will net you more BTC, but you had to put more money in first.

Online DiCE1904

  • Nxter
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
Example:

You use 100 BTC to buy 1% of all coins, you will mine 1% of all blocks.

You use 1 BTC to 0.01% of all coins, you will mine 0.01% of all blocks.

Both are equally proportional to how much money you put in. Same thing as investing $2000 to buy an ASIC vs. $200 for a GPU, the ASIC will net you more BTC, but you had to put more money in first.

i like that  ;)

Help me add more SCUM nodes
NXT: 18422382461553642657

Offline sisseck

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 12:56:05 PM »
Example:

You use 100 BTC to buy 1% of all coins, you will mine 1% of all blocks.

You use 1 BTC to 0.01% of all coins, you will mine 0.01% of all blocks.

Both are equally proportional to how much money you put in. Same thing as investing $2000 to buy an ASIC vs. $200 for a GPU, the ASIC will net you more BTC, but you had to put more money in first.

I like that analogy, but an ASIC or GPU will depreciate and eventually not be able to mine for a profit while your 100 BTC investment for 1% of all NXT will mine 1% of all blocks for all time. I am concerned that this will make people hoard. Maybe a better way to think about it is as a variable interest rate on an investment.

I am still just trying to rap my head around proof of stake and how it will work in the real world.

Offline vkontakte

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 01:34:31 PM »
to be rich you just need to hold tight 50% of all emission and give other 50% in small portions to crowd, when they start buy and sell something, crowd money share will flow inevitably to large holder, this will rise price on reduced amount of money and make richer holders more rich - they just need sell received comissions back to crowd in exchange to fiat/Btc.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 01:41:40 PM by vkontakte »

Offline fruitbat

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 02:55:51 PM »
I understand why this can be confusing. Here is a rundown including some economics 101 concepts that tries to put it all in perspective.

To understand the lifecycle of PoS and how it distributes, we should discuss PoW mining again. In PoW, there is a fixed number of blocks but not all are "known" at the start. The process of discovering the block is what gives you the claim. Because blocks become more difficult over time, early adopters can mine a large quantity with a low capital expenditure(no fancy ASICs needed for those early blocks) or cheaply trade for their currency when its valuation is low, while latecomers have to either spend big to mine, take a smaller return by mining in a pool, or trade at higher prices. None of these options will get them ahead of the early adopters.

So, we can see, the time you enter is the most important aspect of PoW, with respect to what % of the total money supply you end up with. The aspect of spending CPU time to unlock new blocks is a secondary concern and is mostly influential if all the existing big holders are unwilling to distribute any of their holdings. The value of the currency as a medium of exchange ultimately comes from whether people "believe in its worth." Nothing about the piece of paper fiat is printed on is special; it's the trust that the society places in it that gives it value. Cryptocurrency is ultimately the same, but it has a fancy high-tech method of guaranteeing ownership.

In pure PoS as done by Nxt, PoS is there mainly as the technology to enforce ownership within the system, not as a mechanism to change quantity or distribution of currency. Early adopters still enjoy big benefits just as in PoW. The difference, economically speaking, is that you MUST trade to get any currency now. This makes Nxt potentially more brittle, since nobody can enter independently and mine on their own to add supply - you're dependent on the founders being willing to trade or give away. As long as people are buying, and able to buy, the currency will gain value, since more people have invested in the same nominal quantity. That's deflation in action - the same amount as yesterday represents "more wealth" today.

If the market stops moving, though, because everyone's hoarding and expecting more wealth tomorrow, nominal value will be high, but nobody will be able to exit the currency - that's a liquidity trap, and it will cause panic selloffs as people start taking a lower and lower price in order to get anything out. This can also happen in PoW, but it's less likely as long as the currency can be mined, since then the lower bound on value is the energy cost of unlocking a new block relative to how much currency it gives you - if you're the person who mines the block, you should be able to, on average, break even on your effort, and in doing so you inflate the currency.

Liquidity is one reason why economists tend to prefer considering mildly inflationary currencies within the larger economy. Inflation gives speculators a reason to keep trading, because then the speculator will see that some other asset might be a better store of value at any given point in time, and try to move from one to the other. ("How do you gain a small fortune? Start with a large fortune...") As well, debts are also hugely influenced by the value of a currency, and if the currency deflates, debtors lose, as their debts become impossible to repay. This in turn disrupts the rest of the finance system that was relying on debt collection, etc... Long story short, deflation gives you a very wild ride. Most of the coins out there attempt have inflationary characteristics similar to gold - not zero, but low enough that it is still deflating relative to fiat.

As you might have already realized, inflation isn't perfectly distributed either. A profitable miner might succeed in bootstrapping to a larger and larger operation, outpacing competition and dominating the market. In that case there truly is a "rich get richer" effect, where the early advantage compounds to a disproportionate result. (this probably isn't true of PoW in practice; I haven't checked.) Likewise, a central bank might want to release new fiat currency to inflate, but their options for distributing it are usually limited to lending to the biggest banks, and those banks in turn generally have freedom to apply their new currency in ways that may or may not facilitate the economy - moral hazard is rampant when dealing with the innermost aspects of a fiat system. And inflation ultimately affects the price of goods and services, but price changes won't all appear in the system immediately just because a bank got more money.

In any case, with all of those examples, the inflation isn't appearing all over at once; it's crude and lumpy and makes our understanding of the economy chaotic, since the "starting point" of money is going to influence how it's used and valued. Economists tend to construct oversimplified models to sweep the issue under the rug, rather than do something as utopian as propose making our actual currency better.

So, knowing that Nxt has no inflation, we can see that Nxt may suffer from low liquidity and become problematic for use in day-to-day generic debts, compared to existing coins, but it also won't suffer the exact downsides of "bad" inflation. The other features complicate the picture. It's power-efficient, since it's all PoS, while power consumption will increasingly become an issue with Bitcoin and impose an overhead on its use(this aspect is addressed by Peercoin). Coin coloring will be built in, which means that Nxt can become a representational unit for ownership of something else, where the else is any kind of asset. That use-case makes Nxt more of a "store of value." Other upcoming things like the built-in exchange will all add value to the currency as a whole, since it negates the need for those services to be provided by independent (potentially untrustworthy) parties.

So, in terms of "what should I be thinking as a speculator," think about what kinds of things Nxt does well, better than other cryptocurrencies. Will they be enough to make people trust it for their business? This is a world where many kinds of cryptocurrencies might be able to succeed, at least for a while, because they're so easy to create. I wouldn't expect any of them to last forever, though, since there will always be something that could be tweaked.
13243913163420242590

Offline qibucks

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 01:39:00 AM »
What are the benefits of my now investing in NXT Coin that are far superior to other coins apart from being a second generation coin and if it is closed source doesn't that contradict the open source movement that btc has created which is the opposite of being centralized? If I had to 'sell' this coin to the next Punter what would be the 5 top selling points you would tell a customer? :)

Offline gaznox

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 09:57:27 AM »
They really need to make it so there arn't as many dominant shareholders considering the rich get richer. It hurts the community trying to join and grow it.
8175206754189094562

Online DiCE1904

  • Nxter
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 07:42:37 PM »
They really need to make it so there arn't as many dominant shareholders considering the rich get richer. It hurts the community trying to join and grow it.

lol and how do you suggest they do that? Just take it away from them?

Help me add more SCUM nodes
NXT: 18422382461553642657

Offline opticalc

  • Global Moderator
  • Nxter
  • *****
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 06:43:37 AM »
IMO the stakeholders benefit more in the long run if they would the newcomers to mine for profits instead of gobbling it up themselves.  Its a cause/effect thing.  See if you can work it through yourselves... Ill start it off for you...

Right now, people are discovering its basically pointless for them to mine.  Hell, I bought 1M NXT right when it went live, and have only mined 1 NXT.  Yes mining is useless.  So people will eventually just stop.  This is bad for the network as a whole, would you agree?  So now lay out a chain of events if the stakeholders just mine with an account that has 1NXT, and let the newcomers start mining the transaction fees.

what are the causes and effects (chained) of this?

Then determine if the stakeholders get even more out of the deal in the long run.
Not a stakeholder, so NXT accepted here: 12692935506199079028 if you think I've given value here

Offline Buratino

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 06:56:01 AM »
It is true that initial massive amount of Nxt is held by a selected few individuals. This is a global weakness of the project and may destroy it. Given fact scares all newcomers and small (mid) stakeholders.

Offline sisseck

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 07:35:46 AM »
IMO the stakeholders benefit more in the long run if they would the newcomers to mine for profits instead of gobbling it up themselves.  Its a cause/effect thing.  See if you can work it through yourselves... Ill start it off for you...

Right now, people are discovering its basically pointless for them to mine.  Hell, I bought 1M NXT right when it went live, and have only mined 1 NXT.  Yes mining is useless.  So people will eventually just stop.  This is bad for the network as a whole, would you agree?  So now lay out a chain of events if the stakeholders just mine with an account that has 1NXT, and let the newcomers start mining the transaction fees.

what are the causes and effects (chained) of this?

Then determine if the stakeholders get even more out of the deal in the long run.

I really hope that the stakeholders let other people mine, but only time will tell.

Offline utopianfuture

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 07:37:24 AM »
IMO the stakeholders benefit more in the long run if they would the newcomers to mine for profits instead of gobbling it up themselves.  Its a cause/effect thing.  See if you can work it through yourselves... Ill start it off for you...

Right now, people are discovering its basically pointless for them to mine.  Hell, I bought 1M NXT right when it went live, and have only mined 1 NXT.  Yes mining is useless.  So people will eventually just stop.  This is bad for the network as a whole, would you agree?  So now lay out a chain of events if the stakeholders just mine with an account that has 1NXT, and let the newcomers start mining the transaction fees.

what are the causes and effects (chained) of this?

Then determine if the stakeholders get even more out of the deal in the long run.


I think you are right and I have an idea. Transaction fee should really be distributed equally between all the nodes regardless how many coins are there in the account since they contributed equally to the system security. It would make the system democratic in a way and get rid off the accusation of the "the rich get richer".

Online Jean-Luc

  • Fresh Nxter
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: proof of stake the rich get richer
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 01:33:47 PM »
This whole argument about mining is missing the point. Nxt is not yet another altcoin with their typical lifecycle - mine while it is easy, pump, dump, forget about it. If you buy 10,000 Nxt with the expectation to get rich from mining, it is not going to happen. And don't whine about it, this is how it is supposed to work.

Mining in Nxt is not about getting rich fast with no efforts. Mining is to keep the network stable and prevent 51%, or 90+% (whatever the latest design is) attacks. This means that large stakeholders have to have an incentive to mine. Only they can protect the network, this is how PoS works. If they don't, an attacker with a bot net can take over the block chain, and game is over.

Nxt is competing with Mastercoin, eMunie, Protoshares, Ripple. Nxt will only have value if it can deliver the promised features that make it different from all other alts - distributed exchange, colored coins, decentralized marketplace, built-in mixing and anonymity (competing with Zerocoin here).

If Nxt is the first on the market to successfully deliver those, everybody will want to have Nxt because it will actually be useful. If the 'homeless' assets you can read about in the Securities forum on bitcointalk (homeless, because the centralized exchanges they were trading on were forced to shutdown) decide to be listed on the Nxt decentralized exchange, people will buy and conduct transactions with Nxt in order to buy and sell those securities. If the founder of the next p2p marketplace (you know which one I am talking about) decides to host it on the Nxt blockchain, the number of Nxt transactions will go through the roof.

If you as a small investor want to invest in Nxt, you should be doing it with the above value proposition in mind, not because of potential mining income. If Nxt succeeds, your 10,000 will be worth many times more. Yes, you will get a few Nxt as mining fees on top of it, but that's not where your main return on investment will come from. If Nxt fails to deliver the above, it will be yet another worthless altcoin.

As a corollary, attracting asset issuers and making the Nxt platform stable and reliable as a decentralized exchange should become a top priority for the stakeholders, as soon as those features are released. I expect a few weeks of bugfixes will be needed before it is really ready, just like how it is happening with the base release now, so we should not rush it and promise things that are not fully working yet. But we should keep in mind that this is where the success of Nxt lies.